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Re: [Worship] Worship Theological +/-?

David W. Laur Jr. wrote:
> If your in the HP place in Georgia, we some good friends down there.

Actually Ft. Collins, Colorado.

> > My goal as a worship leader isn't to get into the presence of God.
>  It's
> > not to get anything for myself. .. to give God glory, ..., my all.
> 
> It sounds as though you are referring to your personal worship times.
>  Because if you are leader, I would assume you are leading someone or
> group of folks otherwise, who are you leading? why is the office
> called worship leader.  They could easily play CD's.  I'm not bustin
> on ya, just trying to find out if we are talking about the same thing.

As a worshipper, my goal is to give glory to God.  As a worship leader,
my goal is to LEAD other people to worship God.  I have seen and heard
too many times worship leaders who are "seeking the presence of God". 
But this is no longer worship of God.  This is only seeking a blessing
(not that there's anything wrong with it, I just wouldn't call it
worship).

> I'm not talking about sacrifice.  What I am suggesting is - when they
> gave up the position the authority was automatically abdicated.

For those who don't know, abdicate literally means, "to surrender or
relinquish, as sovereign power; to withdraw definitely from filling or
exercising, as a high office, station, dignity" - Webster's dictionary. 
So yes, it's intrinsic that the pastor abdicates authority if he gives
up the position of worship leader, and gives it to another.  But if he
never was the worship leader to begin with, there is no change in his
level of authority!

> is the way things have been done.  You are assuming the pastor is the
> only one who can be the leader.  I am suggesting that in situations
> and directions for the church the leadership needs to recognize the
> position the worship leader holds because it is a "real" position.

The debate here hinges on the definition of "pastor."  I am not assuming
that the pastor is the only one who can be the leader, I am assuming
that the one who is the leader is the (a)pastor!  This could be the
worship leader, as it is in many Vineyard (and others) churches.  I
think maybe a better way to say your point is that church needs to make
the position of the worship leader, an established/respected position. 
Is this similar?  In my experience, this has been the case already for
many years.  I can see, depending on one's background, how that could be
non-existant, and desired to change. 

>  Worship leaders are "Leaders."  They are called, gifted and anointed.

I agree.  But with these specifications, who is to decide who really is
a worship leader?  The person themself?  Even Jesus said, "If I honour
myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me" - John
8:54.

> In many cases, they are responsible for more than even the elders.
>  How many elders do you know have to be prepared to do something every
> Sunday - in some cases 52 weeks a year, or spend time during the week
> learning new songs, teaching new songs, counseling worship players,
> holding practice sessions for Sunday, practice for the newbies,
> practice for harmony, practice for instruments, directing and creating
> atmospheres coherent to  Holy Spirit leadings to allow God to minister
> to His people, not to mention setting up all of the equipment, taking
> it back down, I could keep on going, but the point is, these folks are
> dependant upon for more things than almost anybody else in the church
> and sometimes everybody else combined, with no financial help, no
> direction, no authority, and no respect of office.  Is it any wonder
> that some folks are disgruntled.

I agree (and have experienced this to the max) that the worship leader
does a lot of work.  What is the correlation between how dependant the
church is on the WL, and the authority that he/she has or should have? 
In other words, I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say.

> > The real worship leader should be the Holy Spirit!
> 
> The real teacher, and preacher, and pastor also, is the Holy Spirit.
>  Again, this is the main point.  The worship leader depends upon the

Agreed.

> Holy Spirit leading them to lead God's people to worship Him.  Why is
> it that one office has the helm all of the time?

I see your point here.  Are you suggesting that there be a group of
people who make the final decisions in the church, as opposed to one
clearly defined, appointed leader?

Let's find the truth together.


Loving Jesus,
Matt
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