RE: [Worship] Re: Worship Digest V1 #422

["David Laur" <dlaur@us.hsanet.net>]

Hi Pastor T,

I appreciate your response and maybe we should let this thing go as it is.
I think it would be healthy for us to discuss this issue, however, like some
of the other topics, it will probably get too hot to contain.

Pastor T wrote:  snip, snip,

I couldn't help but respond to David's thread about KP.  KP had become
one of the most anointed worship pace setters anywhere. His music,
style, freedom and message was on the cutting edge.   Men like KP fall
because they are expanding and enhancing the kingdom.
----------------------------------------

Like Dan Elliott wrote, I too think we use the word anointed a little too
loosely.  Again, I do not know KP or have never seen his ministry.  What I
do know is the criteria of a Christian leader.   KP's style may be on the
cutting edge to some.  I don't know what that really has to do with
anything.  I disagree that KP fell because he was enhancing the Kingdom.
That doesn't say much about our Lord's ability to protect us from the evil
one.  PK fell because "he" chose to sin.

The thing that disturbs me the most about this situation is ( and I might be
wrong - PLEASE - correct me if I am) someone said the adultery went on for a
couple of years.  I'm not sure but that is what I remembered someone stating
the letter said.  PK was repenting for having an adulterous affair for the
last couple of years.

It's one thing to stumble and fall.  It is a total different animal to live
in deception for that period of time.  Especially, knowing that he had to
lie to everyone around him - on an on-going basis.  That is VERY serious!

BUT -----  Let's change the scenario for a second.  Again, I have NOT seen
the letter.  Suppose this entire issue is mote.  Suppose we are wrong and
this affair only happened one time a couple of years before he was saved.
That changes everything.  Honestly, that is what scares me.  Because I am
only responding to what others have said.  This entire topic could be way
out of whack.
----------------------------------------------------------

Pastor T wrote:
You  become a major threat to the enemy,  and a very large target.... None
of us can imagine how monstrous the satanic attacks against President
Clinton must be.  .....
----------------------------------------------------------

I understand your reasoning, however, it is not an excuse.  The Lord said He
would put nothing before us we couldn't handle.  Quite literally, KP traded
his talent and position for his sin.  That isn't my decision.  It is written
in our bible.  KP violated the criteria for leadership.  As far as President
Clinton - I won't even go there!  I don't have to imagine anything.  Clinton
is a disgrace to mankind period.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pastor T wrote:

KP's first step of blessing came with the confession, this begins the
restoration.  When he recovers and returns it will be with a greater
anointing.  He will also have learned many valuable lessons.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Anointing comes from God.  It is His decision to anoint KP.  I honestly
believe we fuse (or confuse) anointing, talent, and giftings  "way" too
much.  We use those terms interchangeably and that it is wrong!  There is a
distinct difference between these words and their meaning.  KP could play
music and do a great job at it.  We could be blessed by the music he
produced.  That is only his talent and could even be part of his gifting.
However, anointing is given for purpose.  Just because someone moves us
emotionally doesn't equate anointing.  If this is true than people like
Hitler are anointed.  He moved an entire nation.  I know that sounds
ludicrous.  Yet, if the only criteria we use is our emotions than anointing
gets spread out to a lot folks - Joseph Smith, Gandhi, Muhammad, Confusion,
etc..

Anointing is a special privilege.  Like Dan, I think we should use a little
more caution and restraint in using that word.  I appreciate the fact that
KP blessed a lot folks when he performed/ministered.  (performed/ministered
only means that I don't recall anyone ever calling his concerts a ministry.
I just didn't know what to call it.  I am not implying anything by the "/"
mark.)
------------------------------------------------------

Pastor T wrote:
Dave your comments, "did KP repent or was he caught" I don't believe is
the question.  The bottom line is, the devil succeeded in bringing his
ministry to a halt.  That should shake us all up and cause us to examine
our own lives to see if there is a crack in our armor.  What areas are we
weak?  Do we have enough prayer covering?  What secret sins are we toying
with?
------------------------------------------------------

I understand and agree with this statement.  Again, I was saying this for a
couple of reasons.  In my experience of counseling, I have found that when a
person is caught in the act of their sin, confession is sometimes used as a
substitute for genuine repentance.  Meaning, I got caught thus I am sorry
for sinning.  Now you must forgive me and everything is back to normal.
WRONG!  These are totally different steps in the process of our gaining
someone's trust back.  This is the process of repentance.  However, when
someone confesses their sin because the burden of the sin is too heavy on
their heart, than (in my experience) in most cases,  their repentance is
genuine and their heart is bleeding for healing and change.  When someone is
caught, I find that genuine confession is more skeptical and should be
questioned.
-----------------------------------------------------

Pastor T wrote:
As far as saying "not allowing him to lead (worship) for many years,"
I think leans more to law than grace.  One of the best examples on
failure and "how soon" some one can return to ministry is found in the
life of Apostle Peter.
----------------------------------------------------

I see no correlation between the two.  I think this will only lead to a
theological debate that will be shut down on this list.
-----------------------------------------------------

Pastor T wrote:

...even asked not to hang out with them. As a matter of fact, he still
kept his position as an Apostle.
----------------------------------------------------

Peter was not an apostle at this time.  It is assumed that Peter, John, and
James were the leaders of some sort because these are folks that are
mentioned as being the Jesus the most but this is speculation at best.
There are all kinds of theological issues with this situation of Peter.
---------------------------------------------------

Pastor T wrote:
When we repent, we are just as saved & forgiven as the person who has
never fallen.  God never holds our sin against us, only we do that.  I'm
sure that KP is probably weeping bitterly and may even be in deep
depression.  If he has truly repented, (and I believe he has) God has
forgiven him, the Christian community must do the same....... without
hesitation....unconditionally.    In 50 days, like Peter, KP is more than
welcome to lead worship at my church....or preach his greatest sermon
ever!
---------------------------------------------------

KP's sin didn't condemn him to hell.  The fact that he is "just as saved &
forgiven" is not an issue.  I would highly recommend going back to the
scriptures - Timothy, Titus, etc.  Pastor T, I think I understand your
intention of being merciful and granting grace towards KP for his sin.
However, you can't forgive him - because he didn't sin against you!  He
sinned against God and his family!  That is not our issue.  Our dilemma lies
in the fact that he has violated scripture that explicitly demands moral
character to be in tact.

I believe what is happening within this discussion is several things.  We
are not looking at scripture as the criteria for our comments.  We are
emotionally responding and over reacting too far in the other direction.
Discipline is good for us.  It isn't bad for us.  The devil didn't "make" KP
chose evil for good.  KP made that decision - otherwise KP couldn't be held
accountable for his actions.

Maybe you know KP personally enough to say he is weeping bitterly, but I
don't.  Repentance is an on-going action.  Someone who has walked in
deception for 1 or 2 years is going to have to earn that trust back.  Just
because he is talented and even gifted does not mean he should be a leader.
If that's the case, I want to go the church of the Beatles - because I am a
Beatle nut! :)  KP needs to be punished for his deception.  This is a good
thing!  Not a bad thing.  I am saying to flog him or excommunicate him.  I
am saying there are consequences for our actions - his actions reap serious
consequences.

The church can not for give him.  He did not sin against the church - via
you and me.  We as leaders must assess his leadership abilities by his
actions.  This is biblical. This is Godly and it is our responsibility for
KP's own protection.

As far as allowing him to preach or lead worship in 50 days, I'm
dumb-founded!  I don't know what to say about that.  This is obviously an
emotional subject.  It is disheartening to see it blur our vision and even
our bibles.  We don't have to hate KP or think of him as some sort of wicked
evil person.  We do have to consider the consequences of his sin and if they
meet the criteria of leadership.  If he were running for President, well,
..... but he isn't.   KP is a representative of the church to the world.  He
is accountable for his actions.  That is all I am saying .  He must be held
accountable.

That accountability is decided be his wife and family and his leadership.
Our best for KP is to obey and support their decisions.

David

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<:{{{{><   <:{{{{><
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Habakkuk 1:5
Look among the nations! Observe!
Be astonished! Wonder!
Because I am doing something in your days -
You would not believe if you were told.

Malachi 1:5
And your eyes will see this and you will say,
"The Lord be magnified beyond the  boarders
of Israel."


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