Re: [Worship] the cup of the new covenant...& marriage?

["Bruce L Johnson" <bjohnson@worshipmap.com>]

Jan,

Thanks for the references.

I have a number of thoughts, questions, etc.
but much of this is probably off-topic, so I'll try to limit my
observations and questions to the amtter of
whether this particular set of customs SHOULD be used (i.e., is
their biblical justification) as a way of understanding what we do in
COMMUNION (i.e., to keep things "worship"-related!)
_____________

To begin with --Edersheim's books are, of course, classics on
Jewish customs and a model of how to use them to shed light
on the NT.      Though I may disagree with him on some of
the many details,  I appreciate how carefully he handles the
evidence.

One example of this care is in attempting to take account of
the fact that the rabbinic writings (mainly the Mishnah and Talmud)
are later than the NT.     As a result, though these books often
reflect teachings and practices current in Jesus' day (and earlier),
SOME of the customs mentioned reflect LATER practice.   IOW,
the fact that a custom is found in one of these works does NOT
automatically mean that was how the people of Jesus' day did it.

Edersheim also takes note of the geographical differences --the
customs of Jerusalem and Galilee, for instance, were not always
the same.

So, we cannot simply take any given "Jewish custom" related to
marriage (or any other sphere) and assume it was practiced in NT times.

In fact, sometimes folks will cite 'Jewish customs' and try to use
them to NT practice, for particular customs that are not attested till
the middle ages, and likely developed long after the NT.
This is certainly the case with a number of traditional betrothal and
wedding customs.

______________

What, then, IS the evidence for this particular custom being in practice
in NT times?

After checking the various places Edersheim discusses betrothal
and marriage practices, and a number of summaries and indexes to what the
Mishnah and Talmud say about these things,   I am unable to
find evidence for the one critical claim your web sources make
about the 'offering and accepting' of the cup as part of the betrothal
ceremony at the time of Christ.   (BTW, for those interested, perhaps
the fullest treatment Edersheim provides in one place is in chapter 9
of his book, *Sketches In Jewish Social Life*.   You can view it at
http://www.godrules.net/library/edersheim/edersketch9b.htm .)

Now Edersheim DOES comment about the possible use of
a cup in the betrothal ceremony.  Here's what he says:
     "the whole [betrothal] being *perhaps* [emphasis mine]
concluded by a benediction over the statutory cup of wine,
which was tasted in turn by the betrothed"
[Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah,  vol 1, chap 4
http://www.piney.com/EdLifeMVol1Ch04.html]

IOW, we're not sure such a custom was practiced in Jesus' day.  (In this
case, I think Edersheim's hesitation is due in part to the fact that he is
commenting
about the betrothal of Mary and Joseph --who were from Galilee, whose
customs were sometimes more conservative than those of Jerusalem, etc.
So, it's possible this custom was around in Jesus' day, but only practiced in
certain regions, not in others.)

BUT, even if perhaps there was a ceremonial use of the cup in
connection with betrothal,  the use looks rather different from what
your sources are claiming.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, the ceremonial blessing and sharing
of wine was common to various ceremonies (including the use of the
cup at the end of the marriage ceremony).    Further, the blessing over the
wine, like that over the bread, was a commonplace at Jewish meals.
(The Mishnaic order "Berakhot" [blessings] goes into this in some
detail.)

IOW, this practice at a betrothal --if indeed it WAS the practice
when and where Jesus lived-- was not distincitve.   And this sharing
of a cup is not quite the same as the 'acceptance of the groom's offer'
your artticles speak of.   I have been unable to find evidence of
this particular interpretation of the act in the original sources.

______________

But the existence of a betrothal custom including a cup is not
the most important issue anyway.  The question is whether
it is properly connected with the events of the Last Supper as
the articles you cited claim.

Please note, even if there WAS a (covenant) cup shared at
betrothal,   and even if it was interpreted (or could be interpreted)
the way you mention,  this STILL does not show that Jesus or
the NT writers meant for us to understand the Lord's
Supper in light of this custom.

     Again, the NT text is extremely clear in linking the
Supper to the Passover meal --and the practices concerning
the cup fit in very nicely with what we know about Passover practices--
here's where what we know of Jewish customs certainly IS helpful,
especially about the third cup of the meal, known as
the "cup of blessing" (a term Paul uses for the cup in
his account of the Last Supper).    This is the interpretation
 the NT itself gives us.    Nothing to connect it all with a
betrothal ceremony.

Note that Edersheim's discussion of the Last Supper
makes no connection whatsoever between practices at the
Supper and betrothal and marriage customs.

_______________

Unfortunately, the links you supplied simply list a set of
practices.   They provide no references to tell where they got the
information.   (Contrast this with Edersheim's many notes
to references in the Talmud, etc.)
Nor do they make any distinction between those
things attested in earlier sources like the Mishnah and Talmud
(though, as noted above, some of these postdate NT times)
and traditions that may be much later.

Their lists also look very much as if they are rehashing the same
basic list, and even drawing many of the same applications.
This suggests they are all drawing on a common source (though
again, unfortunately, they do not name their sources), not each
arriving at their conclusions by careful study of the original sources.

Actually, their endeavor to link the cup at the Supper with the
betrothal ceremony seems to be,  not the result of a careful examination
of the accounts of the Last Supper, but part of an elaborate allegory they
are attempting to build, largely in an effort to support a particular
eschatological view (viz., a pre-tribulation rapture of the church).

In fact, one of your links (Tim Warner's "Last Trumpet:"
site) does a nice job pointing this out,  as well as showing that
many of the customs they mention do not support their conclusions.
(I could add a few notes to Warner's list of problems..     most significantly,
the observation that if we do not begin  with the dispensational presuppositions
about the differing roles of  Israel and the church, and the 'great tribulation'
--and I do not-- the whole construction will never get off the ground!)

I believe this whole methodology is highly suspect--
this elaborate allegory is based on a whole series of uncertain,
indirect allusions, rather than on any explicit NT teachings.

I do believe allusions are important to interpretation, especially
those to the OT.  But less-than-clear allusions-- such as those to
customs we aren't sure of the details and meaning of, of even if they
were practiced-- MUST be tested and take second place to clearer
allusions and, of course,  to the explicit statements of the text.

If we use this approach to examine the claim of a direct connection between
 the "cup of the (new) covenant" (or "cup of blessing") in the Supper
and the possible use of the cup in the betrothal ceremony
in this way, I do not believe the claim holds up.

Bruce Johnson
www.worshipmap.com



Jan Ross <jross@focusontheword.com> writes:

> The thing we need to remember is that this was JEWISH CUSTOM
> and part of their lifestyle that we're looking at.  There is a great deal we
can
> find in scripture -- you'll see that on the first link below, but not
necessarily
> spelled out point by point in a defined procedure or Biblical law.  By
> sharing the customs of the Jewish people and drawing parallels to our
> relationship with Christ, this is only emphasizing and bringing further
> understanding to the overall relationsip between the Church and Christ . . .
> between us as individuals and Christ.
>
> Alfred Edershiem, a historical Messianic Jew, has written a very indepth
> book on the Jewish lifestyle, traditions, and customs.  . . . the
> Lord used him to shed a great deal of light on the doctrines, traditions,
> and customs of the Jews. . . .
>
> There are differing interpretations and thereby differing interpretations of
> the parallels.  I would suggest that you take some time to check out these
> links . . . I believe they will help clear up any questions you may have.

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